Help against Breeder

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September 05, 2010, 02:57:25 PM

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Alright, so I've run two variations of Monk decks against this Breeder deck, and both decks just get stomped. I'm looking for some general ideas on how to deal with a very efficient breeder deck.

Key personalities that don't go to battle:
Udo [Zombies come back at home]
Shugenja w/ Might of the Shadowlands [Force Pump]
Shugenja w/ Consuming the Flesh [Negates effects]

If he gets 2 Udos out early, it's easily a dozen zombies by 4th turn.

Unpredictable Strategy might work to bring Udo into battle if I can get around Consuming's negation, but if he plays it right he'll just hold that negation until I threaten one of his key guys. JEV could help, but that's incredibly situational for a monk deck that's running nerve strikes and disarms - also it doesn't get to the root of the opposition (Udo). Don't bother mentioning Cost of Pride or any of the other zombie hate cards that just kill one or two - it's not enough. Even if I take out 7 or 8 of them, he's still got Might of the Shadowlands and Besieged to make them all 6F (7 if he happens to have out his guidance).

Any ideas on how to deal with this?

Thanks in advance!

I didn't played against a breeder deck since TPW with my monk deck, but while reading your post I guess that the main problems stay the same.

My feeling about this matchup is : breeder decks works just like clock decks (honor or dishonor). Given monks have not many printed actions, no special ability (like naval) and are dependant on fate hand, they can survive a relatively short some amount of time before being overwelmed. Hopefully, monks can be fast at cutting into piece opponents strategies.

The main question is : who (you or your breeding opponent) break the first province ? At wich turn ? Do you often attack and bounce because of is presenceless defense (if any) ?

If you had the first strike he'd be in big trouble since breeders deck are bad to share provinces (unless they play some goblin scout for Millitary assesment). The faster you'll be, the less chance he'll have to get multiple Udo and Besieged borderland.

Claw and Shell is my first thought, as it will destroy the undead masses and it gets rid of Consuming the Flesh. However, it doesn't get rid of Udo or Might. Unpredictable Strategy, like you say, is the only way i feasibly know to get him in. JEV, but its situational in monks. There's always Unfamiliar Ground if they are force pumping to 6f, and your monk's force is never really 5 for more (with the exception of Nakahara, Satsu, and Kazuki and any force pumps you might use).

Breeder is a tough match up for monks. Good luck!

Maybe a few extra attachments? The force could help you attack that critical turn or so earlier. Do you use Chasing Osano-Wo?

All I've found to really help is attacking early. However, some breeders use presenceless for that very reason. It's just one of those tough match-ups, i guess.

It's a military clock deck... Sometimes they'll start fast, and sometimes they'll start slow, but the basic idea is that once they've hit their 'clock' (some ridiculous number of warm bodies) you can't win.

Sometimes, a truly good start by a breeder deck just requires you to hit some meta in order to win. Unfamiliar Ground, Turn the Tide, and Imperial Census work well, depending on precisely what people and actions you're running. There's a good amount of 'token' personality hate out there, and with the introduction if TPW, some of it is solid enough to make it into decks now. But as you pointed out, it's sometimes not enough against a good start.

Sniping key personalities and spells is also very helpful. Unpredictable Strategy is never a bad card, and if you want to kill of their nastiest spells, you can go old-school and play Certain Death. If people running away after you harpoon them in, Cowed by Wisdom works well... And all three of these cards are generically useful and aren't going to be dead weight against the 'field'.

Barring that, the only way to stop them is to beat the clock, and the only way to do that is speed things up. Play force pumps, attachments, and other things to make sure you're cracking provinces every turn.

turn the tide does not work for monks; it requires a samurai.

playing against breeder means you need to hit them hard and fast, but still have enough straighten-tech to suck up a bow action, and/or determined force to negate the presence-less defense. multiple kill or bow actions before they can force-pump will help. unpredictable strategy works well to spear the shuggies. you've got a very small window of opportunity to hit breeder and that window is early.

I did say you could play Turn the Tide, but it depends on exactly what people you're playing. My current POV deck has all the Cavalry dudes in it, and has enough Samurai to make use of it.

But yes, the least disruptive way of dealing with Breeder is to use Unpredicatable, which is a generically great card you might already be playing anyway, and hope to hit them fast enough before their deck builds the brick wall.

Quote from: Togashi Miki on July 19, 2010, 01:37:43 PM

I did say you could play Turn the Tide, but it depends on exactly what people you're playing. My current POV deck has all the Cavalry dudes in it, and has enough Samurai to make use of it.

Miki brings up a good point here. You may want to get outside what you think a POV deck should be. Many of the good ones (POV decks) are running Cav Samurai or Duelist or 7 Shugies (Wotan, Masako and Shaiko). This opens up a whole new list of cards for you (- Nothing says "FU Breeder Beeotch!" like a early battle Thunderous Report or a ton of other destructive Spells) and can potentially help you crack those early provinces or more importantly, win that first battle, slow their clock down and take even more Provinces. I find my best games against breeder with POV are the ones where I get two early Provinces and/or I win a turn 3/4 battle.

My next point is: Maximize your card draw as much as possible! POVs life blood is cards, make sure you do what you've got to to get card draw. Breeder has a hard time when you got a fist full of actions because they only have a little kill/bow and then it's all force pump and sometimes crap like Outer Walls, etc. If you do this, you'll always be able to out action the Breeder deck, which you have to do if you end up in a battle.

Next Point: Run dudes that do something. There are a lot of Dragon Peeps with printed actions that have the ability to jack a Breeder early on. I played Breeder last week and while I wasn't running POV I was defending with Shaiko, Ichizo exp. and Kyoshi. While I was not able to use all three actions because he killed Shaiko, then Ichizo. I was able to out action him with actions on my peeps and actions in my hand and that was with him attacking with 2 Guys and 3 Zombies that turned into 4 Zombies when I killed the first one and 3 zombie followers and he left a Shugie at home with that stupid Force Pump Spell and had his force pump region out. From that point, he had to reset his clock and I took a Province on my turn. I'm not telling you this to brag as much as I'm trying to illustrate the point that my non-Monks at the battle were quality and has kick'n printed actions worth running in a deck with Monks, even if they can't cast some of my Kiho.

Hope this helps and doesn't sound like a lot of jibber-jabber.

-Jonathan

Ok, I hate breeder decks as much as the next kensai (lol Grin

), but I have a few questions for you before I can help.

1. I know the various breeder versions well, but which stronghold was it that you played against?
2. What is the general line up of actions you have available on strats and peeps, meaning kill actions, bow actions, etc.?
3. Do you run Sneak Attack? (I've seen some PoV decks that don't.)

I have the same problem with breeder.

I usually play against a Spider FotD breeder that has a mix of Shuggies and Scouts. It has an insane amount of pk and the rest is force pump. It's really too much for my monk deck.